Children of Ulrich Winegar and Anna Arnoldt

Recently, I received a comment on my blog from Debi Lasher, a descendant of Anna Engel Winegar and Conrad Lasher.  She had found records that Anna had married Sebastian Lasher but was looking for other Winegar/Lasher marriages.  That got me reviewing historical records, and I was amazed at what I found.  My records showed that Ulrich Winegar and Anna Arnoldt had three children, Anna Marie, Elizabeth, and Garrett and that the family came to America in 1710.  Passenger records showed that the family came with two daughters and a son.  Garrett married Anna Catherine Snyder, Anna Marie married Johan Christian Dietrick, and Elizabeth married Sebastian Lasher.  The last of these was based on the genealogical writings of Ira Winegar. 

In 1978, Helen Beazer published findings  from her search of original documents in New York state in The Winegar Newsletter, Vol 1, No:3, July 1978.  Based on her research, it appears that Ira had been wrong when he stated that Elizabeth Winegar married Sebastian Lasher.  It was actually Elizabeth Coen who married Sebastian.  Engel Winegar had married Conrad Lasher and apparently Elizabeth Winegar and Engel were the same person.  She is also sometimes called Anna.

In the process of exploring this topic I followed some of the leaves on Ancestry.com. I found that most of the trees that included Ulrich showed that he had 8 to 10 children.  Most showed duplicate information with minor modifications, and many were inconsistent with known facts.  For instance, Anna Margaretha was shown born in Germany in 1690, 11 years before the marriage of Anna and Ulrich.  Anna Arnoldt was 13 in 1690.  Anna Margaretha is shown dying in New York, but there is no record of her traveling to New York.  She did not travel with Ulrich.  One tree shows Anna Maria as born in New York in 1700, 10 years before Ulrich and family arrived.  Many of the trees show between 3 and 5 daughters born in 1705.  This would be Elizabeth/Anna/ Engel, but I am sure that there was only one daughter born that year.  Most trees show Conrad born in 1700 but with no marriage or death record.  Most trees also erroneously show a son Hendrick born in 1723.  Hendrick would actually be the son of Garrett and the grandson of Ulrich.

I still believe that Ulrich and Anna had only three children and would love to hear from anyone with documentation to support any additional children.  I wrote in the past about the ease of genealogical research in the modern era.  It is much easier and faster to find information than ever before, but it is also too easy to spread errors.  It is easy to follow leaves on Ancestry and click to add a person to my tree.  A single error thus becomes duplicated and its source is difficult to track down.  Sometimes I come across information in a tree that I don’t have, and I would love to add this information to my tree.  I have followed up with everyone that showed that info and have been disappointed that no one could remember where it came from.

Please excuse my ranting on this topic, but it is a serious concern, and careless acceptance of erronious data makes it difficult to establish what is correct.  In the meantime, I would like to hear from anyone who can document additional children for Ulrich and Anna Arnoldt.

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12 Responses to Children of Ulrich Winegar and Anna Arnoldt

  1. Debi Lasher says:

    Hi Jim. Thanks for causing me to review what I have on the Winegar Girls.

    This is what I have;Anna Elizabeth was born abt 1698 and married Niclaus Laux, they had a son named Wilhelm Laux who was christened 1 Jan 1716 (my 7x great grandmother is Margaretha Laux..that another time). Anna Margaretha born abt 1695 married first a Mr. Dopp (or Dopf) and second, Phillip Flagler/Flegler. She is buried in the Flegler Cemetery in CT. Anna Engle Winegar was born in 1705 in Germany. She married Conrad Lasher. They are my 6x great grandparents. Anna Maria was born abt 1700 and married Christian Dietrick. Their daughter Anna Marie was christened 1 Feb 1719. I am looking for a copy of the record from St Catherines London in which states that in June 1709 Ulrich was 11 years old and gives his occupation as a vinedresser as well as a birthdate for this son, Garret, as 1702. It would appear there was a misread during the transcription or the original record may have degraded over time. As we are quite certain, Ulrich was born in 1668 which would have made him 31 and certainly not 11. He traveled with one daughter 11 and one 4. Elizabeth would have been 11 (born in 1698) and Anna Engle would have been 4 (born in 1705). Anna Marie Winegar Dietrick (born abt 1700), her birth and crossing are still undocumented at this point…I’ll keep searching. Anna Margaretha (born 1695) would have been 15 and could very well have been married at the time of the crossing. She could have been closer to 16. I have a record for Anna Margaretha Dopp (Dopf) I have to do further research. I will send it to you once I’m confident (for your input). I appreciate all your help Jim! It’s a pleasure and a bonus to have a “new” cousin.

    Debi

  2. Debi Lasher says:

    CORRECTION: Ulrich Winegar would have been 41, not 31 in 1709/1710. Anna Margaretha was born in 1691/1692 and would have been 18 or 19. She married first in 1714 (Demuth)and second (Flagler)in 1724. Could it be that Anna Arnoldt was previously married?

  3. In reference to Anna Elisabeth Winegar, it is stated here that “Anna Elizabeth was born abt 1698 and married Niclaus Laux, they had a son named Wilhelm Laux who was christened 1 Jan 1716 (my 7x great grandmother is Margaretha Laux…that another time).”

    I am trying to put this all in context because Niclaus Laux (or Laucks) was my 5-great grandfather. As you say, he married Anna Elisabeth Wennegar (Winegar) but she must have been a bit older than what you state because she gave birth to two children before Wilhelm (Elisabeth Catharine, b. ca. 1711, who married Johann Peter Althauser; and Abraham, b. ca. 1713, who married Anna Margaretha Reiffenberger).

    I am a male-to-male-to-male descendant by their youngest child, Niclaus, b. ca. 1724. My name is Dickinson because my paternal grandfather was adopted.

    There was a nice 300th anniversary of the arrival of the Palatines held in Germantown, NY in October 2010. They unveiled a new plaque with the names of the original families and “Winninger” was included.

    I would be interested in any information that might document the births of Johann Niclaus Laux (Laucks) and Anna Elisabeth Wennegar (Winegar), their marriage, and their children.

    • Janeen says:

      There seems to be a great deal of confusion as to the identity of Ulrich Winninger and Anna Arnold(t)’s second daughter. Original records show that Ulrich and Anna had three children, a son (Johann Garhardt/Garret) and two daughters (Anna Marie and Anna Engel). Proof that Anna Marie is the daughter of Ulrich Winninger and Anna Arnold(t) can be found in the records of the German Reformed and German Lutheran records in Germantown, Columbia County/Dutchess County, New York. These records give Anna Marie’s maiden name as Winegar.

      Many records state that Anna Elizabeth, wife of Sabastian Lasher, was a Winegar. This is not correct. The confusion undoubtedly comes from Anna Engel Winninger (the younger daughter of Ulrich and Anna) marrying a man with the surname of Lasher (Johann Christian Lasher). Anna Elizabeth also married a man with the surname of Lasher, but she and Anna Engel are not the same person. The Ancram German Reformed Church records of Livingston Manor in Dutchess County, New York, show several records concerning the Rauh family with Sabastian and Elizabeth Lasher as sponsors — but Elizabeth’s maiden name is clearly given as Coen and not Winegar.

      It would appear from the post above that Elizabeth’s second husband was Niclaus Laux.

      • winegar says:

        Hi Jeneen,

        Thanks for your reply. I am in agreement with you conclusions except for Elizabeth’s marrying Niclaus Laux. I don’t find that Niclaus married a Winegar. See my comment from Dec.20,2010 below.

  4. winegar says:

    Hi Luren,

    It is difficult to verify records of birth and marriage information for the Palatines who settled in New York. I am confident that Ulrich Winegar and Anna Arnoldt had two daughters. (Anna)Elizabeth Engle Winegar married Conrad Lasher. Anna Marie married Johan Christian Dietrich. Most Ancestry files show that Niclaus Laux married either Anna Catherine Heber or Anna Elisibetha Hambuch. I don’t believe that he married a Winegar. On my Dec.1 post I included letters from Elizabeth Strauss, a genealogist with the Amenia Historical Society. She may be able to find more information on the Laux family.

    Let me know what you find.

    Jim

    • Janeen says:

      Jim,

      You are still referring to Anna Engel Winegar as “Elizabeth,” thus perpetuating the confusion of Anna Engel Winegar with Elizabeth Coen…both of whom married men named Lasher. So far as I know, there are no records that show Anna Engel being referred to as Elizabeth.

      Janeen

  5. Linda says:

    Hi Jim,

    Thank you for this information. I have only recently taken an interest in the Winegar (and all its various spellings) family as David Winegar / Winigar (sp?) married into my Grim family in Augusta, Virginia ca late 1700s. The son of David Winegar and Catherine (Grim) Winegar spelled his name Winigar (according to his tombstone at Find A Grave) and also had the given name of David.

    David Jr. Winigar married his cousin, Rebecca Grim, dau of my direct ancestor, John Grim in the early 1800s in Virginia. It appears that the Winegars were one of the German families who moved from Pennsylvania to Virginia and later to Ohio along with several other German families, including my ancestral group, the Grim family and Kaumann (Cowman) family.

    I belong to ancestry.com and have been more than a little confused in looking for records of the David Winegar (note his son spells the name differently) who first married into the Grim family in August, VA. Several trees there list David Sr. Winegar’s father as William Winigar, s/o Nicholas Winigar, s/o Ulrich Winnigar. I found this difficult to believe given the lack of citations, so went in search on the internet and found your blog.

    After reading your genealogist’s report and your own research on Ulrich Winegar, I’m convinced I can go no further with David Winegar of Augusta, VA through ancestry.com and the erroneous information posted there on the various Winegar lines.

    This is frustrating, as I’m curious about all of these German families who stayed together as a group and moved as a unit across the country upon meeting in Pennsylvania after their emigration in the 1700s. While I don’t believe my David Winegar is related to your Ulrich, if there are any online resources for Winegars in Pennsylvania and Virginia, I’d love to be informed.

    Because of the spelling variations, they will be a challenge to track. As it turns out, this entire unit of families has been difficult to track; in researching the Grim and Kaumann families one finds the Winegar family mentioned, esp as they married into the Grim family, but no history of their origin unfortunately. This research on the Grim family was undertaken by a family member who hired at least 5 different genealogists! The Winegar family is mentioned in their findings.

    Anyway, I hope it’s okay I posted a story on my ancestry tree noting the errors being perpetuated there by connecting David Winegar to Ulrich back through two generations, all three generations I believe to be in error. I noted the url for your blog, and hopefully other Winegar descendants at ancestry may be inspired to do real research. Unfortunately, prof. genealogists’ prices are out of my range, so I’ll keep searching the internet for informative sites like yours.

    I’m also interested in your mention of a Virginia genealogy publication? As my ancestors did settle in the Augusta and Rockbridge region, perhaps I should look into a subscription.

    Thanks for all the info!

  6. John Lasher says:

    Hi Jim and all

    I can not verify any further children of Ulrich and Anna Winegar. Every record indicates they only had three. As you know they had a son Garhard, who was my ancestor, Gerhard Lasher’s, maternal uncle, namesake and his baptismal sponsor. His sister Anna Engle Winager had married Conrad Lasher on or before 1724 (marriage record not located). For your convenience I have included the following records:

    Conrad and wife Anna Engel Winegar were the baptismal sonsors for the following children:

    Anna Engel Minckler on 24 apr 1726 at Camp (NYC Lutheran Churchbook) “Sp. Conrad Loscher and wife Anna Engel”

    Engel Lasher on 27 Aug 1741 (Germantown Reformed Churchbook) “Sp. Coonrad Loescher and Engeltje Winneger” [their neice]

    Conrad Clapper on 7 Oct 1741 (Germantown Reformed Churchbook) “Sp. Conrad Lessor and wife Engel Winneker”

    Conrad Lasher on 19 Feb 1746 (Germantown Lutheran Churchbook) “Sp. Cunrath Loescher and Elizabeth” [their nephew] [?? Elizabeth could be Engel's sister-in-law, Elizabeth Hemmer, wife of Conrad's brother George but as this is the baptizees' mother, its not likely. May be a transcription error. JFL]

    Conrad Heyner on 28 Jun 1751 (Loonenburg Lutheran Churchbook) “Conraad Loscher and Engeltje”

    Engel Lasher on 28 Nov 1767 (Stone Arabia reformed Churchbook) “Sp. Conrad Losher and Angelica Losher” [their grandaughter]

    Conrad Lasher on 11 Apr 1775 (Germantown Reformed Churchbook) “Sp. Conrad Lescher and wife Engel Winniger” [their youngest nephew]

  7. John Lasher says:

    I’ve also located these baptismal records for Engel Winegar Lasher:

    Wilhelm Barthel on 22 Nov 1721 at Queensbury, Camps w/ William Hagedorn (NYC Lutheran Churchbook) “Sp. Wilhelm Hagedoorn and Engel Winiger”

    Engel Clum on 22 May 1725 w/ Christoffel Fritz (Linlithgo Reformed Churchbook) “Sp. Christoffel Fritz and Engel Lisser”

    There is also a record of Engel’s mother, Anna Winegar, ats the baptismal sponsor of her son Johannes Lasher here:

    Johannes Lasher was baptised at “7 weeks old 11 Aug 1726 at Haneman Saalbach’s home at Kamp. Sp. Jos. Bast. Loscher – his paternal grandfather, and Anna Winniger – his maternal grandmother.” NYC Luth. Chrbk.

  8. John Lasher says:

    Hello again, I went looking in my sources for any information on a possible Elizabeth Winegar. The main source being “The Palatine Families of New York, 1710″ by Henry Z. Jones Jr. I only found that one entry listed above. I think this likely to be a transcription error for Engel or possibly an Elizabeth Lasher who was a sister or sister-in-law of Conrad Lasher. As the only other Conrad Lasher, b. 1726, possibly old enough at the time was barely 15 years old and not likely to be a sponsor for a younger cousin. This leaves my Conrad Lasher and his wife Anna Engel Winegar. Either way I can find no records for an Elizabeth Winegar.

    Below, I have listed the information I’ve found for Anne Engel’s sister Anna Maria Winegar Diederich:

    Henry Z. Jones, Jr. in his book “The Palatine Families of New York, 1710″ states Anna Maria Winegar married Christian Diederich. Presumeably based on the following records:

    Christian Haber, baptsed 29 Sep 1726, “at Jakob Schumaker’s at Kamp” Sp. “Christian Dietericks and wife Anna Marie” (NYC Luth. Chrbk.)

    Christian Schreiber, baptized 14 Oct 1744, Sp. “Christian Diederich and wife Maria Winnegrin” (Red Hook Luth. Chrbk.)

    Christian Moore, baptized 2 Jun 1749, Sp. “Christian Diederich and Maria Diederich” (Red Hook Luth. Chrbk.)

    Maria Moore, baptised 19 Dec 1756, “Sp. Christian Diederich and Anna Maria Winegar” (Red Hook Luth. Chrbk.)

    Maria Moore, baptized 30 Oct 1757, Sp. “Christian Diederich and wife Mareitgen Winneger” (Germantown Luth. Chrbk.) [This last may also be the Christian Diederich who married Maria Gertrude Hagedorn - as Marietgen is a contracted version of Maria Gertrude and the baptism also being in the Germantown area. JFL]

  9. John Lasher says:

    Strike that last bracketed comment above, as her name is clearly written Mareitgen WINNEGER. Apologies.

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